First Genetic Relative with the Williamsons

For reference here is my paternal line with wives: Albert Thompson & Ida Williamson -> Ray Thompson & Ina Finks -> Charles Thompson & Elizabeth Seelye -> my dad -> me.

Although I have a few genetic relatives I believe are related to my Williamson family I haven't had anyone that actually contained my Williamsons in their tree..until last night. Hunting down a lead on some possible Williamson related people from Kentucky, I unexpectedly ran right into the Williamsons.

The shared ancestors would be Alden Williamson (b 1750) and Isabelle Thompson (my other Thompson family).

Now, not too long ago, I would have been jumping up and down about this, but now I'm a little reserved.

What is going against it?

• There are references to known maternal relatives of my father in this match's tree. Farther back in time but still present are the Fulkersons that are related to my Seelye family. 
• The match is over two chromosomes and each match individually is pretty small. They are individually small enough that they don't necessarily stand up on their own.
• There are no known overlapping relatives..just a group of matches I haven't figured out yet. One of them is a group I only have a single tree for and that is the tree that contains a big east coast family with the Elmer family in it...also very active where my Seelye related family lived.
• I may see false positives from Virginia that are really related to my Finks family (Ray Thompson's wife). They have a long history there and not all of it is known.
• Also as I said in my post about our Y breakdown there is a non-paternal event somewhere between my grandfather and Albert Thompson as my grandfather effectively does not match the Y of his paternal uncle (Ray Thompson's brother). So it may be that my grandfather is not related to his father Ray Thompson at all...which is our connection to the Williamsons.

So, those things give me pause. What do I think this match has going for it?

• Autosomal DNA is weird, sometimes small segments are handed down intact for generations and other times they get whittled away bits at a time. So those small match sizes may be a whittled down representative of a solid match.  
• This is the first time the Williamsons have been named. It's the first time I've found them in the family tree of a genetic relative, unlike my grandmother's family which I usually find in any family tree...including those I know to be paternal matches. So I have a lot of history of false positives for my Seelye family.
• Circumstantially, I see a lot of activity surrounding places my Williamsons lived in Kentucky including a string of overlapping matches that seem to share family there.
• Although I think it is unlikely and I'm pretty resigned that we don't have a Thompson Y, I should say that I haven't yet tied the Indiana Thompsons to another Thompson family either. They are much, much more likely to connect to a Thompson family..but we just haven't tied that one up yet.
• Although our Ys don't match up, I have a gut feeling that Ray Thompson is the father of Charles Thompson, but is likely not the son of Albert Thompson. Maybe it's because Ray looks so different to me from his brothers or that my grandfather looked a lot like Ray when he was older. Maybe it's because I can see my cousin's features in my grandfather and Ray. It's a hunch. Logically, I can say the Finks/Thompson match up is the most likely break given the odd circumstances surrounding it but those circumstances may also be the best thing they have going for it. For all intents and purposes Ray thought he was my grandfather's father and Ray's family took responsibility for my grandfather and raised him.

So basically I have a hunch with added weight from circumstantial evidence and this finding in a genetic relative's tree, that make me think the family picture in this post: http://thompsonhunt.blogspot.com/2011/02/thompson-photo-1927.html is an accurate depiction. Ida Williamson is there with my 2 year old grandfather (her grandson) on her lap. Her son Ray is in the back row looking like a serial killer. She is Ray's mother, but Ray's father is.. is not pictured.

Hopefully this is one of those things that can be resolved with 23 and me testing from my Indiana Thompsons who would share Ida Williamson as a great grandmother in this scenario or with further testing of my Seelye family to see if this match is totally on their side of the family.

Continuing Thoughts about Migration

I was tooling around the FTDNA site checking on my DF95 results and happened into the "maps" area. Since I'm always excited about map speculation, I checked it out. It's very basic. Since I'm in R1b it has that group highlighted with a nice line going to the  general vicinity of France. What was interesting was the placement of Haplogroup I.

Pardons for the small image but this is what they have there (undoubtedly old):

What I found so interesting about this particular map was the arc that I takes and that it seems broadly similar to the path of Z18 and many of it's subgroups. Is it possible that our Z18/Z14 only group in the last post was caught up in the current of I as it intersected and headed north? Maybe better put, is it possible that the circumstances that led I to go north on that path, also led Z18/Z14 to do the same?

I don't really know enough about I and it's movements or timeframes. It would be interesting to see if they coincide in some way or if this map is just so old that it's not a relevant picture of a migration pattern.

For interest, here is a gradient map of haplogroup I M253 from the Wikipedia:

458.2 Cluster Bomb..and thoughts about migration

I'm unsure about the continued relevance of my own Y DNA to the search for the Thompson family, but I am hopeful that it may yet lead me to some conclusion about my grandfather and his male line. So, we march on.

What you see here is really just a gathering of ideas for my own benefit. Please don't take it all too seriously as new things are discovered every week and I'm an average person trying to make sense of things the best way I know how. I am likely neither fair nor balanced.

For reference, here is a quick chart stolen from the Z18 and subgroups page:

What you can see there (click it for a larger view) is R1b at the top. That is a huge group of men in Europe. It breaks down into a few groups, the two here are P312 and U106. P312 is the larger group and is roughly labelled "Celtic" by many people because it trends towards areas where Celtic culture was prevalent. That is the branch I think many Thompsons would expect to be on. We are on U106, a large group but smaller than P312 which seems most prevalent in "Germanic" speaking areas today.

U106 breaks down into a few groups, but our focus would be people who are Z381 and people who are Z18. Z381 is the lions share of U106. L48 underneath that is roughly the largest group with many subgroups underneath it. We are down the smaller sibling group of Z381,  Z18. Beneath Z18 you have Z14 which leads to a child Z372 and then Z372's child L257. Z14 has other children, L343 and DF95.

We are Z372- so we remained in Z14, clustered with like individuals until just recently.

We got our news about the DYS458.2 in our Z14 Cumberland cluster. Some have it and some don't. Oddly (to me) the group that has the 458.2 is larger than those without. The TMRCA for 458.2+ and 458.2- is around 1300 years ago..so around 700CE. Hey it's on this side of the BC/CE line!

Several of us tested for DF95..my results are due next week but it is probably a "given" that I'm positive because multiple members of my cluster are also positive. So DF95 occurs in both 458.2- and 458.2+. The age for DF95 was given as about 1500 years ago, so 500CE. It came first before our 458.2 split.

So within a few hundred years of DF95 SNP we develop a DYS458.2. Not too shabby.

DF95 is a brother to Z372. We know they don't go together because multiple DF95 people are Z372- and at least one Z372 is DF95-. So they evolved separately from Z14 (the parent of both DF95 and Z372). 

Z372 is considered a pretty Norse leaning SNP. DF95 so far since it's basically only been found in Cumberland seems to lean to the South side of the Baltic and North Seas.

I have made mention that the DYS458.2+ seems odd to me because it covers more ground than the original flavor (DYS458.2-). That could be lack of sampling. Maybe we're just missing men from Poland who should be 458.2-. It's odd though in that general east to west migration model that the parent of a group would only occur in the western half of the area covered by the child group. Of course, I am a simple person so simple migration paths make more sense to me, but people rarely do things in a simple way.

So I decided to step back and look at Z18 (at least our side of the house) and try to get my bearings and wrap my head around what I'm seeing. This is what I gathered:

z18+ z14- (so these are the ultimately Z18 individuals not down any known path). This isn't based on frequency so there may only be one person in each place. There are very few Z18 Z14- people. There again, a parent group is much smaller than the child group.

France
Switzerland
Scotland
Germany
Belgium

Here's a map I made with google maps: 

A fairly West leaning and continental group with pretty good coverage North to South. To me that is kind of striking, Z18 is a major (if relatively small) child of U106 and U106 is pretty wide spread in Europe trending towards Germanic speakers, certainly occurring in these countries with good representation. It's the Westerly lean that strikes me for this group. That, and it doesn't seem to crowd around the North and Baltic sea so much mainly because there just aren't representatives from the Netherlands, England, Denmark, Poland and Norway currently. 

It's hard to make much of this group because it's so small. If Z18 is roughly 3000+ years old these men would have been part of multiple migrations over a long, long time. Someone who was U106+ mutated to Z18 and his children went on to be about 1/3rd as large as the Z381 population. Z381 mutation and Z18 mutation are siblings on the tree, but could be separated by many centuries and a lot of geography.

So here's the most concise map I could find for 1000BC: 

That's our list of suspects for Z18. Modern continental Z18 (everything else negative) today seems to occupy the part of the world labelled "Celts". There is great danger for error in assigning current geo-locations for 3000 plus year old DNA. Especially from a single sample form each country. For fun...Lets leap forward. Here is a map from 500BC:

So at 500BC we're starting to see things we would recognize today. The Teutonic peoples have split up into Scandinavians and Germans and pushed south into the Celtic world (this idea is based on language studies I think...along with archaeological evidence). Z18 would be well established somewhere in this world. Jumping forward, Here's a simple map of Europe around 200BC also stolen from timemaps.com:

So, somewhere in that great unwashed world, maybe labelled Celts in 1000BC or  "Gaul" or "Germans" in 200BC,  Z18 came into being in a single U106 man.  The people who don't diverge end up, thousands of years later in those modern countries from the first map above. Who were the original Z18 family? Who knows, there are a lot of "Germano-Celtic" tribes generally in that area and without actual remains tested, how could anyone say?

There are other migration theories as well. I'm taking a position today and thinking about it as static, but I've heard that you can look at the fallout of a genetic group (where they ended up at some geographic barrier) and try to bring the dots back to a point. In the case of Z18, maybe we guess came from the east because they are peppered to the west. Maybe they hit the alps to the south and the ocean to the west and called a halt.

Also good to remember that at this time on these maps you already have Z14 in the mix since it is about 3000 years old. Also, what we know most about the world is coming from those two colorful groups at the bottom of that last map. The Greeks and Romans. Lots of grains of salt to be had.

Anyway, it's speculative at best but interesting to note that we're lacking our friends in Scandinavia and Poland and the Netherlands. So people were obviously on the move, but what got them moving?

Here is a nice map of Europe around 30BC taken again from timemaps:

Here is a map from 200AD:

Facing this red swarm, some groups are going to be okay, but very obviously a lot of people are going to die, be displaced and invade other territories in the face of an organized superpower like the Romans. At this point (200AD) we may have Z372 branched off from Z14 and maybe L257 branched off from Z372? I think Z343 would also be in play with it's 1900 year TMRCA.


Z14+ (Child of Z18). These are people who have not tested positive for down stream SNPs.

England
Netherlands
France
Scotland
Sweden
Germany
Ireland
Denmark
Wales
Finland
Poland
Switzerland

Here's a map of that area. Keep in mind that I'm outlining modern nation boundaries that obviously did not exist, so the map is way off and also again may be missing representatives from specific nations. As a for instance, the total area of Sweden is not inhabited by armies of Z14 men..the populations hug the coasts there.

So this is the big child of Z18..Z14. Z14 is estimated to be about 3000 years old. So these people who tested Z14 and nothing more, had 3000 years to get where they are going and it's a lot more geography and more people than Z18. 

Cumberland was in this group until a few weeks ago. Here we have the same group of Z18 countries but with many more nations added and a more familiar pattern that crosses the North and Baltic Seas. The Scandinavian presence is much larger here and the range is pushed east by Poland and Finland. I'm discounting the contribution of  the isles because of the bias towards Isles testers and because it's one of those physical barrier destinations that are likely to get people all bunched up. My guess is that we're missing some testers from Norway and Belgium.

Again, when thinking about history for the maps here, Z14 and Z18 have an overlapping range and timeframe. Z14 appears to be very popular, leaving it's parent in the dust. Z14 also seems to have a classic "Germanic/Baltic/North Sea" spread you'd expect from a descendant of U106. I may be doing a disservice by not having exact geo-pins for these people. Maybe I'll tackle that later. On to the children of Z14.

Z372+ (but nothing more) which includes

Netherlands
Scotland
Sweden
England
Italy
Norway

Again, this map exists without regard really for number of people in a place or downstream SNPs like L257..and realizing that people are likely missing. This is a rough map of current nations for Z372. This group is for obvious reasons thought of as a Norse group. There is a member from Italy that is not shown on the map. I don't want to forget about them! So here is a map of viking settlements that includes Italy:

I think the general theory on this group (except for Italy) is conveyed in this viking invasion map stolen from the BBC's primary school history site:

It would be easy to see the Baltic as a squishy border for Z372. A Z14 person maybe in that fluid area becomes Z372 and carries it's popularity north and west? This group I think is what one might expect from a child group. The geographic area covered by Z14 is sort of "halved" by it's child Z372.

East Anglia Cluster L343 (for the moment seems to define the "East Anglia Cluster" and is an SNP that occurs in multiple clades) DF95-, Z372-

England

Ireland

Scotland

Germany

It's a decent sized cluster but so far pretty specific and I think the current theory on this group is summed up by this map stolen from Wikipedia:

EAC-L343, again seems to live in a subset of areas where Z14 exists. Roughly also heading west, likely from the first East Anglia Cluster-L343 man...maybe living in Denmark or  Germany?

When looking at this anglo-saxon invasion map, and the one above, it may be helpful to note that the broader groups all the way up the tree to Z18, U106, Z381, P312 are also going to be represented in these migrations. Genes don't always favor political or social boundaries. You may be more likely to run across P312 in France but it doesn't mean the others are absent...just maybe not as popular. 

Also the Romans were great movers of people. So you may note that where U106 and it's children have a great foothold in England is also where Rome had a great foothold in England.

Okay, so we are not part of Z372 and haven't tested positive for L343 (that I know of) but I think it's good to look at them as examples of possibly narrowing the geographic locations of some of these Y chromosome groups. So far, it looks like Z372 is the sibling of DF95.

We are a part of DF95..which may come to define our Cumberland cluster. I'm going to cheat because I've had a long time to look at my matches and I'm pretty sure my matches from Denmark and Switzerland would also be DF95+. I'm going to cheat in another way. I know the group is split by DYS458.2, but I'm ignoring that here:

DF95+
England
Ireland
Netherlands
Wales
Poland
Germany
Norway
Belgium
Possibly Denmark (my matches at ancestry and Ysearch Peterson and Hansen)
Possibly Switzerland (my matches at Ysearch Steiner)

The DF95 (and possibly CTS2206+ based on a recent test result) group is basically the Cumberland cluster at this point. Here we are, found pretty much everywhere Z14 is found but we lack the Finns and the Swedes that are so prominent in Z14 and in Z372. The Corsons are in this group and they may well be Swedes but they may also be from the Netherlands so it's hard to tell. We're missing France too. All of that could be lack of testing. The best guess is DF95 crops up around 500CE.

Here is the super rough map of Europe around the time DF95 is thought to have popped into existance in some Z14 male:

If you zoom in, you'll see the Frankish state, rough Saxons and Angles and Danes. Other tribes are listed but this is well into a movement of people during the Germanic Migration period. It would be hard to pick just one. Also, 500CE is a really rough guess based on the differences in the STRs of our cluster. DF95 may be much younger or older once more data is available. 

There is also room for DF95 (or CTS2206) to grow beyond our cluster as there are still a few Z14 groups out there who have not tested for it yet like the Polish cluster, the Finland cluster and the Z14* cluster..

Another point of interest I want to spend time on here is that  we're vastly outnumbered. The other branches of U106 dominate all these areas. Although Cumberland as a whole is large for Z14 groups..it's small in the context of the rest of U106 and it's really spread out. 20 to 30 individuals represent that DF95 chunk of the planet. And again, that current map doesn't represent one movement but 1500 years of movement.

For the next two breakdowns I need to remove Steiner and Switzerland from my list because although I suspect they have a DYS458.2 (Genebase refused to give a value for their DYS458 saying it was an "anomaly" and would not be helpful for matching), I'm not certain they have one so they are out. Booo.

458.2- (Cumberland Cluster Members who do not carry the DYS458.2 mutation. They are DF95+)
England
Netherlands
Ireland
Possibly Netherlands or Sweden

This group, in yellow overlaying the green DF95 image, is the most likely parent group for 458.2+. It likely includes the Corsons who are either Dutch or Swedish. It's very small. It could be that we just don't have enough samples or it could really define a home range for this group. I think the general feeling for Cumberland A..if we're not thinking about more recent migrations from Belgium and the Netherlands to England and Ireland (which are still a good possibility) is the same Anglo Saxon invasion of England that appears to be played out in L343. I don't know that the Saxons were particularly involved in Ireland up front but they definitely became involved as did the vikings from Norway and Denmark.

It's also very good to note that just like Z18 Z14- above I'm making assumptions and lots of them based on a small group of people.


458.2+
England
Netherlands
Wales
Poland
Germany
Norway
Belgium
possibly Denmark (Peterson match at Ancestry known to have DYS458.2)

I've lazily included Wales in a lot of these maps but it bears special note here because it's specifically listed an it's the second time I've run into it. The Edwardsons from Malpas England also have a firm belief that they are Welsh.

The General feeling for our entire cumberland DF95 group, I think, was an origin point in Poland moving west, but the 458.2 results cramp that style for me right now. It's possible that we're just missing 458.2- Polish people. Truthfully though, I would have expected them to be the majority of 458.2- people, not totally missing. The same thing for the Germans. I wouldn't expect 458.2 to be the majority group but it seems that way. Again, vastly outnumbered by other U106 people, but instead of sweeping cleanly west we seem to go in all directions. We cover nearly the same amount of ground as the Z14 only group. So the parent 458.2- group is the small more defined group and we are basically still most places Z14 was.

The guesstimated date for 458.2 is around 700CE or about 1300 years ago..very very roughly. Here is a rough map of Europe around 700CE:

The Anglo Saxons are in Britain presumably with some 458.2- cumberland A members along for the ride and somewhere on this map a single man gets a 458.2+ and becomes pretty prolific. In simple terms, I would look for that mutation to pop up in an area where Cumberland A lived. England, the Netherlands and Ireland. I harbor a lot of doubt that 458.2 cropped up in England or Ireland and then made it's way to Germany and Poland.

Alright. So up until now I haven't really looked at where there is clumping going on. Where do the highest numbers occur. For this, I'll only use the knowns.

England gets 5-6. (UK could be anywhere in there).
Poland 3
Germany 2
Belgium 1
Netherlands 1
Norway 1
Wales 1

I imagine we're missing a lot of data from the Netherlands and Belgium I think as they have projects for Y DNA that have been a bit closed..or at least prohibitive  in the past. We're very lucky to have our friends from Poland to give us balance in an Anglo-centric testing environment. It would be hard for me to say that this group originated in England and then moved to Poland and Germany just because of the little bit I know about England. It is more of a destination country.

For comparison here is he Z372+ (everything else minus) crowd:

Sweden 10
Norway 4
Scotland 3
England 3
netherlands 1
Italy 1

Part of the bulk of Swedes comes from the Scandinavia cluster which is heavily Swedish. Here again though, can I take the sheer number of testers to equal origin? I can say the numbers are high in places with Scandinavian influence but does that mean Sweden is the root or could it be one of the other countries. Knowing that Sweden is a source country and a people that are well traveled, that is exactly the temptation. The high saturation in Scandinavia makes England and Scotland easy to understand.

What does it mean to us in DF95 for migrations and sources though?

I'll pick on the "Swede Cluster" here. They are Z14+ and have members from England, Ireland, Wales and Denmark and a TMRCA of about 1600 years ago...so about 400CE, not too distant from the guessed origin date for DF95 but they are DF95-.

England 3
Denmark 1
Wales 1
Ireland 1

Looking at that distribution, I would still guess that England has a testing bias and Denmark is closer to the source..maybe it's of note that there are several Sweets in the East Anglia L343 cluster...Angles being from Germany/Denmark and all and here is the Swede cluster with a Swett.

Again to me it seems fairly direct for them. They cover a lot of countries but they could easily be categorized as likely Anglo Saxons or "Danes" which are kind of hard to tell apart.

So again, looking at distribution for all of DF95 458.2+ or - I have to wonder are we thinking of a model of source country west or are we thinking of a model of least population to most at some barrier? Could the barrier on the west be the Atlantic ocean and the Irish? Could the barrier on the East be the Slavs?

Poland west. The assumption I would make here is that we're just missing a few Polish testers who are DYS458.2-. There are fewer of them so by the numbers it would be harder to get them fom Poland than it is to get their English speaking counterparts. A similar assumption could be made for Germany. We just really haven't seen them yet but we could in the near future. Z14 exists in Poland and it's a nice place to branch south and continental and North to Scandinavia meeting up at the Isles.

England East..believe it or not English speakers did travel east to serve in armies for foreign kings. It's possible if unlikely that they originate in England and travel east. Gut feeling is that, that is very unlikely.

Germany west and east. Okay there are a few ideas I have for this. DF95 crops up in Germany..ish in an anglo saxon stronghold and moves west with the angles and saxons and jutes and moves east at a later date when the saxons controlled portions of Poland or through regular German immigration to Poland. After all German immigration to the U.S. brought all kinds of culture along with Y DNA to my country why wouldn't the same movements of people head east like the Volga Germans who lived in Russia.

The Danes. Like I said, I think we're missing a couple of Danes. This is the lawn sprinkler theory. You have your Saxons, Angles and Danes. Hard to tell apart at the Y as there is a lot of cross over there. You have one movement from the area west with the Anglo Saxon invasion. A second movement to the west with the Vikings and the great Heathen Army which took over the eastern side of England and set up the Danelaw. There is at the same time a colonization of the southern and eastern Baltic that puts the Danes in a nice position to cover a lot of ground both east and west in a similar timeframe and with long lasting effects. I think the Danes are running parts of Estonia in the 1300s. They have a long and I think sometimes overlooked relationship with the rulers of Poland too. They were in a nice position to hammer england, bother the Netherlands and control the south Baltic.

Those last two may be combined really as waves of people from the area of Denmark and Germany would have moved both east and west in search of better things and more opportunity.

I haven't forgotten our guy in Norway. Denmark also was connected through trade and administration with Norway. The Sagas (you can laugh now) at a minimum show that the Danes, Swedes and Norwegians were definitely working together to run that great Heathen Army around England and Attack the Franks and Attack the Slavs. By Attack, I also mean trade, farm and colonize too.

So there are my two arguments. We're looking at a nice East West migration from Poland..or maybe even further east and south a bit. Or my favorite today, we're looking at the same Anglo Saxon and Viking movements that would bring Z14 and DF95 men both west and east.

On top of that when I think about the study showing that the Danes used Polish mercenaries in their armies, I'm even more convinced of the relationship and the ability of the Danes to move men around their world. There are suspected Jomsviking beheadings in England..Jomsvikings being Polish Scandinavians is pretty darn interesting.

When I see the 458.2- people not including Poland as a major player but still containing the Netherlands it makes me think that we may be looking at a couple of movements at different points in time from the same general place in the middle.

The saxon boat burial in England looks just like a buried viking ship to almost anyone.

It could be the rum talking and I realize I'm favoring the Danes today and I'll likely favor the Hanseatic League or German Mennonites tomorrow but I have one of many "gut" feelings that our Scandinavian brother clade Z372 may just be the "northern" Scandinavian clade.

It will be interesting to see what further DF95, CTS2206 and CTS2207 testing bring up. It would be interesting to see another fracture in our cluster like the 458.2 divide.

To see and to speculate about.

In hind sight now having written all this, I think my block maps are crude and oversimplified. I should attempt pinpoints where possible. These ranges may not seem too extreme when looking at pinpoints. Well, that will have to wait for another day.




Edit 7/19/2015

This post is a few years old now and although I think it has good ideas, I thought I should add some new information that I've picked up from the U106 and Z18 projects with a big heap of my usual speculative ramblings.

• Big Y Cluster Bomb 
• Some speculation following the big Y results

Two Flavors of Cumberland

The Cumberland Cluster at the Z18 and Subgroups project comes in two flavors now, thanks to cluster wide DYS458 retesting sponsored by our Elmer and Emery brethren.

DYS458.2 does not occur in all Z14 Cumberlands. So we know it happened after Z14 (lots of other clusters are also Z14+ but in informal polling at least one does not show DYS458.2) and further we know it happened after our distinctive "Cumberland Cluster" pattern emerged (DYS390=25, DYS5385=11-11, YCAII=19-22, DYS565=11) because some cumberlands have a 458.2 and others do not.

As it has been explained to me, micro-alleles like 458.2 have a low instance of back mutation, so once you get one, you continue to pass it down through generations. The whole number changes, but the micro-allele does not (without a really rare back mutation).

It looks like given the genetic distances in our two groups, the common ancestor to the two cumberlands lived around 1300 years ago.  Literally a case of one son having a 458.2 and another not having it.

What is interesting right now is that the 458.2+ cumberland-B group is larger than the 458.2- cumberland-A group. Thinking about things in simplistic terms I would have expected the opposite. I would have expected the Cumberland B DYS458.2 to be the smaller child group to a larger DYS458 Cumberland A parent group.

Another interesting observation about the two cumberlands. The usual suspect in migrations from mainland Europe is from east to west. So in the old cumberland cluster you had members from Poland to Ireland and the general assumption is that Poland is a good start point and Ireland the end of the line.

Now 458.2+ Cumberland B (the larger group by three quarters ranges from Poland to Wales including members from Germany, Norway, Netherlands and England (and I suspect from my ancestry.com days at least one from Denmark). Cumberland A the ancestral group, only contains proven members from the Netherlands, England and Ireland.

Again, simplistic thinking, but I would have expected the two groups to cover the same range or for Cumberland A (458.2-) to cover the larger range as a parent group giving rise to the child group somewhere on the way west.

There is always a bias towards testing in England because of people from the U.S. and Britain that have been testing for some time. So it's hard to look at all those UK testers and make sense of them in context with other tests. Our Winne family from the Netherlands may represent a large contingent from the Netherlands..and we may not know.

Also taking the largest area a group inhabits may not really give you the origin place of that group. People usually migrate to get a leg up and be more successful. So you may see more results from an area that was migrated to instead of migrated from.

It's possible for "back migrations" too,  west to east or in a big loop. People don't always really care to stick to the rules when migrating.

Still we seem to be hugging the North Sea and South Baltic sea. Cumberland B seems to have done well or itself in Poland, Germany and the UK with smaller showings in the Netherlands and Norway. Cumberland A did well in the UK with smaller showings in the Netherlands.

Earlier today I was looking up Kristiansand Norway where the Lund family is from in Cumberland B and the Google map did that auto centering thing and ..of course showed me where Kristiansand is but it also gave me a perspective of the Cumberland world while it did it.

I've made a lot of maps but it was still interesting to see the canvas laid out. It made me think about maybe we're not looking at a nice east to west migration. Maybe we're looking at a migration from a center point south west and east? If you were there near Denmark, Poland and the UK would be on the radar.

That may be my bias towards the Danes though and maybe I shouldn't say Denmark but set the focus on the blue around it. Water is not a barrier, it's a highway. Could the Cumberlands find an origin in this tangle of Islands around the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark with Cumberland-A favoring a westerly route and Cumberland B heading both west and east in good measure?

DYS458.2 Cluster Bomb and a DF95 for me

Although this information is unlikely to help me find Levi Thompson's family in Pennsylvania, I'm pretty excited.

In order to get the most current data on all cumberland cluster members DYS458 results, a few of us donated money for testing and had a group retest done. The results should be out in a few months. With this test we'll be able to see if the DYS458.2 values are cluster wide or if they break the cluster into smaller groups.

Testing everyone at once will bring all of us up to the same standard and will make the results less questionable (they are questionable now due to differences in testing companies in the past). It will also make everyone's results "available" for review where as I had to individually poll people in the past.

see http://thompsonhunt.blogspot.com/2012/11/dys4582-poll-returns.html

If the value breaks our cluster up, it may give us an idea of when it happened along some projected migration path or span of time. If not, maybe it is a defining mark of our cluster.

I've also signed up for a DF95 SNP test. A few cluster mates are already positive for it, but again, it's one of those things you want to test to make sure it's cluster wide. I believe it was first identified in Wales, but it looks like one of our German cluster members is already positive as well. It may also turn out to be a defining SNP for us or a break point for the cluster.

I can't wait to speculate wildly on these two results as they come in.

http://l257.groenebeverbv.nl/index.php/test-results/y-dna-profiles-l257-min

The Wrong Thompson Family

I hate to mention this, but it's better to put all the weird theories out there I suppose. I've mentioned the Ritchie family in the last post. They are part of a group of families in Kentucky that I think might be related to my Williamson family and therefore I have one theory that although I do not seem to be descended from Albert Thompson, we may be related to his wife Ida Williamson (holding my grandfather in the 1928 photo). That Theory rests on Bishop Thompson being her son, but not necessarily Albert's son. That is the going theory that I need to test by getting one of my Indiana Thompsons run through 23 and me.

This theory, the "wrong Thompson family" theory, has to do with a striking coincidence. It's really easy to add too much meaning to such a coincidence but. There is another Thompson family that exists in Anderson Indiana at the same time that Levi is there and at one point I thought they may have been Levi's family. It's the family of William A Thompson from Pittsylvania Va who married Mary Ellen Berger also from Pittsylvania Va. They moved to Madison county Indiana and had children (one of whom served with Levi in the Civil war).

They were of interest because of location and timing but also because they are English Thompsons rather than Irish or Scots Irish Thompsons. It turns out they were not from Pennsylvania and never passed through there. So I set them aside.

What brought them to my attention again was this Ritchie family. I have seen it before. William A Thompson's mom is Margaret Ritchie. Those Ritchies from Virginia are the same Ritchies that move to Kentucky to become part of the families of my dad's two genetic matches.

It could absolutely be a giant coincidence. I've been burned multiple times by these things so you have to take it with a really big grain of salt. Basically..at this point, I can show a definite relationship from two of my dad's genetic relatives to a Thompson family in Madison County IN...it's just the wrong Thompson family. Now..before I knew where my Thompsons were from, I would have killed for this match and assumed that we were related to these Thompsons somehow. Now I'm just not sure what to do with such an idea.

There are a lot of directions I could take, but all of them rely on having living Thompson men from William A Thompson's family to Y test as a start...and it really is a fluke. I am 99% likely to be totally wrong..so I almost hate to put it out into the world. It really could be a case of like people ending up in like places.

When You Come to a Fork in the Road

Take it.

Okay. So in my Thompson hunt, I have two tracks...well three, maybe four. Lots of tracks. We'll just leave it at that.

Major questions for me are:

• Who are my grandfather's parents? 
• Are we in any way related to the Indiana Thompsons by blood (will our DNA tests help define the family)?
• Can we use the Indiana Thompson Y line to tie us to an existing Thompson family outside of Indiana (hopefully in Pennsylvania)?

Who are my grandfather's parents?

With my dad now representing the oldest generation of my Thompson family, step one is to start with him. 

We can break that into two parts. We have the Y test which we've whittled down to matching a very small group of men who hail from southern England and the U.S. East coast, with our closest match being the Elmer family and specifically the branch of the Elmer family in New York (the Vermont to Utah branch was a little farther away). There is a current Elmore candidate but they haven't tested far enough yet.

We also have his autosomal results which we can use to try to define which parts of my dad's genome belong to my grandfather. There are two tracks for that. Testing relatives that are primarily related to my grandfather like his maternal Finks cousins and testing known relatives of my grandmother to define which parts of my dad's genome belong to her. Whatever doesn't belong to my grandmother is my grandfather's contribution.

Luckily we're already well down this path as we have known relatives who have tested from my grandmother's family already. One tester is a know Beadle relative who shares second great grandparents with my dad. Another is a Seelye/Beadle relative who shares great grandparents with my dad and a third person who shares third great grandparents with my dad on the Campbell side of the Seelye/Campbell family (my dad's maternal grandparents).

Through those matches I've been able to identify paternal genetic relatives for my father. My grandfather's genetic relatives.

I'm waiting for one really big test to come in. My dad's maternal uncle is testing. He would share the Seelye Campbell family and hopefully would be a much larger match than the other matches as he is the closest living relative to my grandmother. He should help me define both the Seelye side and the Thompson side of the family much better.

The next step on this track, is to try to get a known Finks relative tested so we can help define my grandfather's maternal versus paternal sides. That brings us to a point where we run into the next question.

Are we in any way related to the Indiana Thompsons by blood (will our DNA tests help define the family)

From my Y breakdown we can see that we do not meet up on the Y at Albert Thompson as we had thought. The possibility still exists that we are related to Albert's wife Ida Williamson though. 23 and me results are helping with that, but without refining things..there are a lot of different directions to go in.

Right now, I have at least one set of paternal genetic relatives of my dad that I suspect are related to the Williamson family. Two different people match my father on the same chromosome in the same position and their families run right back to Floyd Kentucky and Virginia to the Ritchie and Fugate families. In researching these connected family trees I see records for my Williamsons and related Williamson families (who could also be my Williamsons). They are also some of the biggest genetic relatives my dad has.

Ironically it was the strength of these genetic matches at 23 and me that made me think Y testing the Indiana Thompsons would be an exercise in boredom. Of course they would match..we have this obvious Williamson match up.

So, I need to test an Indiana Thompson (the oldest generation I can get) to see if they also carry these Kentucky matches. If they do have a big match with my father (after all they may share at least one great grandparent) then I can say it is most likely that we're related to Ida Williamson and our combined 23 and me tests will help define the Williamson family. That can help us find the Thompsons and would help me define paternal matches that may not be Williamsons. Pair those up with tests of Finks family members and the Seelyes and we can narrow things down pretty far.

Can we use the Indiana Thompson Y line to tie us to an existing Thompson family?

This one is really a matter of funding. We need to test one of the Indiana Thompsons out to 37 markers on the Y. The 23 and me test will help here too as 23 and me will define a base haplogroup for the Indiana Thompsons and that will give us a place to start testing further down the Y tree to define a "last known" SNP. Both those tests combined will help secure a match with another Thompson family and hopefully get us past the brick wall of Levi Thompson. The Indiana Thompsons are much more likely to match with other Thompsons. Right now they just match up with too many Thompsons to say anything definitive.

Suggested Further Y Testing and Cuba Thompson

To help explain these Y suggestions, I 've made a different Y chart coming from Albert Thompson. On the left you'll see Ray Thompson, my line with my grandfather his only son. Middle is Francis Thompson confirmed by Y tests from his two sons and on the right is Cuba Thompson and a blue marker for his only son (or at least the only son listed in his obit).

Three major Y suggestions have been given to me, regardless of any further 23 and me testing.

One is to extend one of the lines of Francis Thompson to at least 37 markers, which would be the counterpart to my 37 marker test. The "Francis" Thompsons are WAMH. That means they match most of Europe without regard to haplogroup and could fall under multiple possible matches under a thousand surnames. So testing them out to 37 markers will hopefully give them better matches.

Two, I need to find a haplogroup for the Francis Thompsons. I know I'm down U106 to Z14, but they could be anything. A haplogroup will help define who "can" be their match. If they turn out to be U106 then someone in P312 is not a match (and vice versa).

Three...this one is harder. Find a living male descendant of Cuba Thompson to test. Harder because I don't know that there are any. In 1978 his obituary says that he is survived by his son Jerry of Anderson Indiana. I think Jerry was likely born around 1931/32 to Onda Harris, he's listed as Gerald in the 1940 census, but not much more than that. I don't know if Jerry ever married or had children, only that he may have been in the Anderson area in the 1970's when he was in his 40's..then again maybe not. "Of Anderson" can just mean someone was born there. I would need to order the obituary of his mother to see if he is listed there, possibly with grandchildren of Onda, to know if there is anyone alive to contact.

Why Y test Cuba's possible male line? Well, because it would verify Albert, which was the intention of Y testing the lines of Ray and Francis in the first place. Having a nice Y match going back to Albert will solidify things for the Thompson line and there would be no more male Thompsons to test at the level of Albert as Albert's brother James died childless.

Prioritizing:

Option 3 will take more time as we'll first need to find that family, make contact and approach testing..it could take years.

Option 2 could partially be covered under an already agreed to 23 and me test. A Y haplogroup is defined in that test and it would kill two birds with one stone for $99 as it would also tell me whether they share a match with my father consistent with a common great grandparent. Further SNP testing could follow at FTDNA to refine their haplogroup.

Option 1, likely the most expensive test to refine the Y from 12 to 37. It's most likely to give us a good Thompson match though, hopefully getting us past Levi (father of Albert) and would set the bar for a test of Cuba's line.

Option two would be the easiest to accomplish financially and technically because a tester is already lined up and it's less expensive than the Y refine. The broad haplogroup defined at 23 and me will help place Francis Thompson in the Thompson Y DNA project too while we wait for the funds to bump them up to 37 and work on Cuba's descendants.

Y Breakdown

To try to help explain the Y testing I've done, I have a man chart of the men involved in our family Y testing extravaganza. At the top is patriarch Albert Thompson born in 1870 followed by his sons Ray Thompson and Francis Thompson. The dapper looking boy on the left is my grandfather.

This should help describe the layers. Blue boxes are filling in for men without pictures. I've labelled the testers under their squares. Basically my test is first. Then I ran test two with a second cousin of my father. If we had matched you can go all the way up to the intersection with Albert Thompson because that is where both sides meet. 

Since we didn't match, then we have to test a little closer to home, and there you have the test 1 match and test 2 match. Those tests can only confirm to their first intersection. So, my cousin and I testing verified our grandfather. Test two matches verify their grandfather (who is my grandfather's uncle). All that I can say is that my grandfather does not match his uncle as Y test 1 and Y test 2 do not match each other. Without siblings for my grandfather, we cannot confirm my great grandfather with Y testing. 

Now I'll look to 23 and me to provide answers as we have Y test 2 candidates run autosomal DNA tests. Y test 2 and my father should share great grandparents, if they show enough of a match to suspect that they share a single great grandparent (Ida Williamson - wife of Albert), then it will be more likely that the Y break happened at my great grandfather and it would confirm him. If not, then I would suspect that the break happened at my grandfather and we would more likely be unrelated to the Thompsons.

If it looks like we're unrelated to the Thompsons then the best bet for finding our Thompson/Williamson family would be to have both Y test 2 cousins run Autosomal tests at 23 and me. Where they matched each other would represent the contribution of their grandparents and make it easier to track down Williamson and Thompson matches.

We will also want to extend at least one of the Y tests out to 37 or 67 at FTDNA, because we'll want to clearly identify that main Thompson line. If they're P312, their results would line them up with other Scots Irish Thompsons  very well, but it would be nice after all this time to get that confirmed Thompson match and we can only accomplish that with more markers. 

There is also the tiniest of possibilities that the break in the Y didn't happen on my side of the tree but actually happened with Francis (my grandfather's uncle), but I think that is very very unlikely given how well they are already lining up with other Thompsons and how poorly we have. It's been pointed out to me that the only way we'll answer that is to find another Y line of Albert Thompson to test. Right now I think that leaves us Cuba Thompson the only other Thompson in this family, I've been able to find children for. He had a son named Gerald or Gerry or Jerry born in the 1930's to his wife Onda Harris.

There is also a very very tiny chance that we actually do match up and they are a super freak mutation away from us and towards "normal" European. Considering we fit with a cluster of people who all look like us at this level in Z14, that seems like a really fringe chance.

Wyrd

The results are in from my rounds of DNA testing. To confirm my grandfather (who has no brothers or sisters to test) I tested my first cousin and to confirm my grandfather's uncle, two of my father's second cousins tested. They were first cousins to each other and so confirmed their grandfather (my grandfather's uncle) brother to Ray Bishop Thompson in my tree. My grandfather having been raised alongside their fathers there in Indiana.

Things being right with the world, my cousin and I are a perfect match and the second cousins are a perfect match to each other.

My cousin:

13

25

14

11

11-11

12

12

12

13

13

30

Me:

13

25

14

11

11-11

12

12

12

13

13

30

Second cousin 1:

13

24

14

11

11-14

12

12

12

13

13

29

Second cousin 2:

13

24

14

11

11-14

12

12

12

13

13

29

You can see my cousin and I are pretty distinctive even at 12. We have the three 11s in a row which is actually a mark of our cluster under Z14. The 25 in position two where the modal is usually 24 (except in our cluster). 

So even at this most basic level we don't match the Indiana Thompsons very well except that we're both R1b. They are likely R1b-P312 while my cousin and I are down the other branch R1b-U106.

The Indiana Thompsons are already being placed with similar Thompsons in the Thompson project. Their DNA is exactly what I would expect from a Scots Irish Thompson. My cousin and I are still sitting in the "ungrouped" area.

What I know is that my grandfather does not share a Y ancestor with his uncle. Those are the facts. Whether he matched his dad is yet to be figured out. With no first cousin Thompsons for my dad to test against, we're done Y testing Thompsons on our side. 

The only way I can think of to find out if my grandfather is related to his father Ray Bishop Thompson is to test one of the Indiana Thompsons at 23 and me. If the NPE occurred at Ray Thompson then my grandfather could be related to Ida Williamson (his grandmother) but not Albert Thompson (his grandfather) and the Indiana Thompsons and my father would share a great grandmother. That could/should still be very visible in their autosomal DNA. 

If the NPE occurred at my grandfather, then he would be related to his mother Ina Finks, but not his father Ray Thompson and I would have to begin there looking for genetic relatives of my grandfather. No Williamsons to match with.

The reason I think the NPE is on my side of this equation is the fact that the Indiana Thompsons already have decent Thompson matches where I have had none. They look very Thompsonish while our results really do look "ungrouped". They are now really the best hope for finding the family of Levi Thompson.

If you've followed along, you know this has been quite a journey through what it means to be a Thompson and to search for your roots and follow the patterns. I've been hunting for people, but also following the arc of a stone thrown in the water and watching the ripples expand outward. Trying to piece together, sometimes ancient, history with strands of DNA and use it along with, often poorly kept, official records to figure out the minds and actions of people in the 1800s. In turn seeing how people from the 1800s have shaped my life and the lives of my children. It has been an awesome journey.

From very early on I've expected and suspected some form of NPE, but I know, deep down, that I have always sort of hoped it would be a little further back in time.

As I write this, what strikes me is that only by coming this far and battling this hard to piece things together, would I gain the knowledge and make the connections needed to know that my best hope to find Levi Thompson's roots is to remove myself from the equation.  

We Thompsons always do things the hard way, and this is no different. This time though Fate has smiled upon me and given me a good turn. I will find this family that gave me my name and shaped all our lives. I now have the piece of the puzzle I've been struggling to place. I have the tools and the information and I think things are going to start falling into place.

I also have a new clearer front in my campaign of genealogical terror. With some help from my Indiana Thompson cousins and 23 and me I'll be better able to tell where we diverge from the family genetically. Now that I don't have to meet up with my Thompsons using our very non-Thompsonish Y DNA, I'm going to be able to find our genetic paternal line too.

I have yet another interesting family to learn about. Fate goes ever as she shall.

Ancestors by Cousinship

At 23 and me, you'll often get an idea of Cousinship with a match request. It will say something like "estimated 4th cousin with a range of 3rd to 5th cousin" or "5th to distant cousin". So far, I've been lucky enough to gather one second cousin 1x removed  and one 4th cousin 1x removed for my father. Since 23 and me rolls out to 5th cousins in estimates I'll go from 2nd to 5th here as best I can. Some lines in my family end at second great grandparents for my dad so I've tried to note them in every generation as parents of or grandparents of a known person. I'm lucky to have a pretty decent tree, but there are still bald spots.

I've split out another paper trail Thompson list of ancestors that fits the records I've been able to find. I have a hunch the U152 Indiana Thompson branch will fit that tree better. Since it's in contention for my family though, it would probably just muddy the waters of people looking for cousinship matches at FTDNA, Gedmatch.com or 23 and me.

This list I will try to keep at a more Genetic level for my U106 Michigan Thompson line, Finks, Seelye and Campbell families. These are the family lines I've been able to solidify at a basic level through DNA testing. For example, although there are likely to be errors in the Finks family tree, through testing a Finks relative, I know we're related genetically to the Finks family.

Here is my dad's list of ancestors by cousinship:

****2nd cousin sharing great grandparents****

Robert Sanford Finks
Birth 16 Sep 1879 in Mackinaw, Tazewell, Illinois, USA

Ida Ellen Mitchell (Michel)
Birth Jul 1883 in Illinois, USA

McKendree Thomas Seelye
Birth 10 Nov 1858 in Hadley, Lapeer, Michigan, United States
Death 19 Jul 1953 in Montrose, Gennessee, Michigan, United States

Clara Elizabeth Beadle
Birth 1 Apr 1864 in Ypsilanti, Washtenaw, Michigan, United States
Death 3 Jul 1925 in Lum, Lapeer, Michigan, United States

William John Campbell
Birth 21 Aug 1857 in Komoka, Middlesex City, Upper Canada
Death 15 Apr 1936 in Montrose, Genesee, Michigan

Adelia Frances Light
Birth 23 Jun 1865 in Vienna, Elgin City, Ontario, Canada
Death abt 1894 in Flint, Michigan, USA, Genesee Co.


****3rd cousin sharing 2nd great grandparents****

William Jackson Finks
Birth Sep 22 1837 in Culpepper county, Virginia, USA
Death 6 May 1922 in TAZEWELL CO., ILLINOIS

Telitha Hibbard
Birth abt 1845 in Illinois, USA
Death after 1910

Charles Auguste Mitchell (Michel)
Birth 30 Mar 1834 in Croismare, Meurthe-et-Moselle, Lorraine, France
Death 1889 in Tazewell County, Illinois, USA

Margaret A PERNELL
Birth 27 Jan 1853 in Pekin, Tazewell, Illinois, United States
Death 9 Dec 1927 in Groveland, Tazewell, Illinois, United States

Thomas Seelye
Birth 4 Feb 1821 in Westmoreland, Oneida Co., New York
Death 3 Jan 1895 in Ann Arbor, Washtenaw Co., Michigan

Naomi Dorothea Sutherland
Birth 7 Sep 1822 in Cambria, Niagara, New York, United States
Death 10 Dec 1904 in Ann Arbor, Washtenaw Co., Michigan

Myron Henry Beadle
Birth 30 Nov 1838 in Pennsylvania, United States
Death 18 Jan 1915 in Unadilla, Livingston, Michigan, United States

Ellen Mariah Hathaway
Birth 11 Sep 1843 in York, Washtenaw, Michigan, United States
Death 3 Sep 1923 in Unadilla, Livingston, Michigan, United States

Duncan Campbell
Birth 1828 in Ontario, Canada


Nancy J Osborne
Birth abt 1836 in Canada


Lazarus Light
Birth 8 May 1830 in Downton, England, United Kingdom
Death 1906 in Vienna, Ontario, Canada

Elizabeth Abbe
Birth 10 Jan 1827 in Lincoln, Ontario, Canada
Death 10 Mar 1890 in Lincoln, Ontario, Canada


****4th cousin sharing 3rd great grandparents****


John Finks
Birth 1793 in Rappahannock County, Virginia, USA
Death Nov 1871 in MacKinaw, Tazewell, Illinois, United States

Winifred McQueen
Birth 1791 in Rappahannock County, Virginia, USA
Death 6 sep 1859 in MacKinaw, Tazewell, Illinois, United States

Mortimer G Hibbard
Birth abt 1827 in Ohio, USA

Philicy Felicia Ann Jeffers (Jeffries)
View relationship to me
Birth 1821 in Kentucky, USA

Jean Louis Mitchell Michel
Death 8 Dec 1862 in Tazewell County, Illinois, USA

Anne Aubert
Birth 13 May 1799 in Haudonville, Meurthe-et-Moselle, Lorraine, France

Parents of Margaret Pernell born 1853 in Tazewell Ill
...pos John Pernell and Mary Ann Lambert

Cornelius Seeley
Birth 3 Sep 1796 in Westmoreland, Oneida, New York, USA
Death 4 Mar 1866 in Westmoreland, Oneida, New York, USA

Rachel Smith
Birth 1 Oct 1800 in New York, United States
Death 18 Oct 1843 in Ohio, United States

Andrew Sutherland
Birth 3 Sep 1776 in Sutherland Falls, Rutland, Vermont, United States
Death 27 Feb 1836 in Cambria, Niagara, New York, United States

Naomi Annie Cooley
Birth 6 Oct 1788 in Pittsford, Rutland, Vermont, United States
Death 15 Dec 1870 in Romeo, Macomb, Michigan, United States

Frederick Beadle
Birth 22 Apr 1813 in New York, United States
Death 13 Mar 1872 in Washtenaw, Michigan, United States

Christina Scoby
Birth abt 1820 in New York, United States
Death 1862 in Wheatland Center, Hillsdale, Michigan, United States

Isaac Baldwin Hathaway
Birth 23 Apr 1817 in of, Wayne, New York, United States
Death 21 Dec 1906 in Parma, Jackson, Michigan, United States

Eliza Ann Morey
Birth 1819 in Milton, Ulster County, New York
Death 1846 in Pittsfield, Washtenaw, Michigan, United States

John Campbell
Birth 1804 in Argyllshire, Scotland, United Kingdom
Death 18 Apr 1881 in Lambton, Ontario, Canada

Catherine Anne McArthur
Birth 1799 in Islay, Argyllshire, Scotland
Death 4 Jan 1874 in Halton, Ontario, Canada

Parents of Nancy Osborne born 1836 Canada
..pos William Osborne and Mary A Unknown

George Light
Birth 16 Feb 1783 in Downton, Herefordshire, England
Death 12 Mar 1864 in Vienna, Elgin, Ontario, Canada

Mary Clarke
Birth 01 Jan 1788 in England
Death 12 Sep 1871 in Vienna, Elgin, Ontario, Canada

Daniel Abbe
Birth 8 Nov 1801 in Granby, Hampshire, Massachusetts
Death 1849 in Lincoln, Ontario, Canada

Esther Nunn
Birth July 23 1809 in Lincoln, Ontario, Canada
Death abt 1875 in Lincoln, Ontario, Canada


****5th cousin sharing 4th great grandparents****


Andrew Finks?
Birth  Virginia


Mary Fielding..or maybe Lucy Vawter (wife of Andrew Finks)

Samuel McQueen
Birth 1762 in Culpeper, Culpeper, Virginia, United States
Death 1815 in Culpeper, Culpeper, Virginia, United States

Martha Unknown
Birth 1758
Death 1821 in Culpeper County, Virginia, USA

Elias Hibbard
Birth 4 Mar 1797 in Fairhaven, Rutland, Vermont, USA
Death abt 1846 in Clark, Illinois, United States

Diadama Amanda Darcy Bridge
Birth 1804 in Canada
Death 1890 in Fulton County, Illinois, USA

William Jeffries
Birth 1783 in Virginia, United States
Death 1823 in Washington, Kentucky, United States

Ann Jett
Birth Abt 1785 in Virginia, United States
Death Aft 1840

Parents of Jean Michel and Ann Aubert from France

Parents of John Pernell?

Parents of Mary Ann Lambert (pos Joseph Lambert and Margaret Smilaire)

Daniel Seeley
Birth 1 Jul 1763 in Deer Park, Orange, New York, United States
Death 29 May 1840 in Westmoreland, Oneida, New York, United States

Phoebe Fulkerson
Birth 20 Feb 1768 in Westmoreland, Oneida, New York, United States
Death 13 May 1803 in Westmoreland, Oneida, New York, United States

Parents of Rachel Smith (pos Thomas Smith and "Betts")

Peter Sutherland
Birth 1756-02-20  Bangall, Dutchess, New York, USA
Death 1828-05-00  Sutherland Falls, Rutland, Vermont, USA


Carol Bush
Birth 1754 in Sutherland Falls, Rutland, Vermont, USA

Benjamin Cooley
Birth 30 Apr 1747 in Greenwich, Hampshire, Massachusetts, United States
Death 27 February 1810 in Pittsford, Rutland, Vermont, United States

Ruth Beach
Birth 11 Jan 1756 in Morristown, Morris, New Jersey, United States
Death 5 Sep 1825 in Pittsford, Rutland, Vermont, United States

Parents of Frederick Beadle born 1813 NY

Parents of Christina Scoby born 1820 NY

ISAAC Hathaway
Birth 19 Mar 1777 in Rockaway, Morris, New Jersey, United States
Death 17 Feb 1848 in York, Washtenaw, Michigan, United States

Mary Heddon
Birth 27 Jan 1778 in Rockaway, Morris, New Jersey, United States
Death 14 Aug 1849 in Washtenaw, Michigan, United States

Parents of Eliza Ann Morey born 1819 Ulster NY

Patrick Campbell
Birth 1775 in Inveraray, Argyll, Scotland
Death 25 Sep 1848 in Kent, Ontario, Canada

Ann McArthur
Birth 1776 in Argyll, Scotland
Death 1 Jun 1869 in Kent, Ontario, Canada

Parents of Catherine Anne McArthur Birth 1799 in Islay, Argyllshire, Scotland

Parens of William Osborne and Mary A Unknown

Parents of George Light born 1783 Herefordshire Eng.

John Clarke
Birth Jul 1751 in Chatteris, Cambridgeshire, England
Death 1 Apr 1825 in Chatteris, Cambridgeshire, England

Sarah Unknown
Birth 1754 in Chatteris, Cambridgeshire, England
Death 1844 in Chatteris, Cambridgeshire, England

Abner Abbe
Birth 5 Nov 1758 in North Windham, Windham, Connecticut, United States
Death 13 Dec 1805 in Windham, Windham, Connecticut, United States

Sarah Swetland
Birth 22 Aug 1762 in Springfield, Hampden, Massachusetts, United States
Death 1815 in Connecticut, United States

Benjamin Nunn
Birth 16 Apr 1775 in Bucks, Pennsylvania
Death Nov 1862 in South Dorchester Township, Elgin, Ontario, Canada

Elizabeth Fretz
Birth 22 Apr 1789 in Bucks, Pennsylvania, USA
Death Jun 1863 in South Dorchester Township, Elgin, Ontario, Canada