Thompson Distribution in England and Scotland

I've found that some really general information about England and Scotland has really helped me out. I got these maps from Ancestry.com. Unfortunately they don't have maps for Distribution in Ireland to compare with. Also unfortunate, the only maps from England are for 1891. You can see the Thompsons here and do your own searches.

With the Thompsons and most Scottish families you see a general massing of people in the lowlands around Lanarkshire over time from 1841 to 1891. My bet is that they are following industry. From reading the history of Scotland this general move seems like a larger trend that goes back to the 1200s. The eastern part of Scotland saw a lot of immigration from and emigration to Belgium and Flanders, France and the Baltics as did South East Britain.

Generally the western Highlands have been more remote, Gaelic speaking and sparsely populated.

The Scottish kings did a lot to integrate their society with business savvy populations from elsewhere and to be a modern melting pot for Europe. Along those lines, English was spoken in Edinburgh but as I've read it the Scottish Gaels and Norse Islanders were included in the business of kingdom rather than excluded as Britain had done with Wales and Ireland. Scotland took an integrative approach and even though it borrowed heavily from Norman feudal systems it attempted to maintain it's traditional clan systems as well. Trying to be as English as they could be without losing their Scottishness.

I think some of that is apparent in the wealth of family and clan names and spellings and the mishmash of DNA haplotypes from different regions. This also plays out in the arena of family names.

For instance both the Sinclair and Frazer clans are actually from France. A MacTavish or MacThomas both more traditional Gaelic names, might choose to be a Thom(p)son depending on what's acceptable wherever they live at the time.

The history of Scotland with it's invasions and immigrations and fluid changable borders and almost constant warring with England has helped to make us who we are, even if we don't know it.

The "Other" Thompson Family

I need to come clean about my Descendant list.

I may have mentioned this earlier, but it bears repeating. The family tree I've picked to be "my" family tree is really just one possible tree among many. The problem stems from my great, great grandfather Albert. He was born in 1878, married Ida Williamson and died somewhere between 1909 and 1920. In the 1910 census he is listed with the children and Ida and it says his mother is from Indiana and his father is from X.

In 1920 he is also listed without Ida, but with her birthday and it says that both his parents are from Indiana. It also lists him as widowed. I believe it's a jumbled record really meant to portray his wife...maybe as Mrs. Albert Thompson.

It's really sort of a dead end. So I began looking for Albert Thompsons who were born in or around the right town and at the right time and came up with several possible alberts to follow. The three most likely were two Alberts with both parents from Indiana and one Albert whose parents were from Denmark.

Since the two records I have list father from X or Indiana and both list mother from Indiana I disregarded the Denmark Albert and went with the other 2.

I have not done any good legwork on this. It will take years to contact county officials and put pieces together from obituary records that might exist. All my leads come from Ancestry.com which is a dubious resource most of the time.

Never the less, I followed both Alberts, one led to Thomas Thompson from Ireland circa 1785 and the other led to Archibald Thompson form Ireland circa 1751. Both familys began life in the U.S. in the Carolinas. Thomas moved to Ohio and the Archibald Thompsons wound through Kentucky before both ended up in Indiana with dueling Alberts.

Neither of these outcomes totally fits with our family story of being British...but both kind of do in that they were both probably Ulster Scots or Northern Irish who transplanted to the U.S. during separate droughts and famines. Both fall within the range of two Scotch Irish migrations.

I realize that these are just two possible outcomes in a universe of Albert Thompsons and I'll never know for sure until I actually start working with state and county records offices in Indiana. All of that will cost me money and take time.

So I turned to DNA to try to verify some of this information. As you can see in my Ambiguous results post I didn't get the "direct" answer I was looking for. In fact I just got more mystery.

The one thing I did get from the DNA testing that is sort of immeasurable is contact with some very helpful people who are giving me clues and tools to help me find the real Albert and his real parents. Now that is exciting.

The MacTavish Thom(p)son Issue

As mentioned before there is a Clan Thom(p)son society that is actively seeking their own clan based on Border Reiver origins and links to various other clans like MacThomas and Fraser. It seems that MacTavish is the official home of Thompson while MacThomas has conceded Thompson and claims only Thomson with a caveat that not all Thomsons are MacThomas. All of that stands to reason, what one clan can claim a name derived from a persons father. DNA research seems to bear out that not all Thom(p)sons are related.

It seems reasonable therefore that an individual Thompson should do as much research as they can to find genealogical evidence for a clan relationship, but if they cannot, then they have an interesting opportunity to choose and some fairly generic Thompson tartans and patterns of coats of arms and crests to choose from.

The Chief of the MacTavishes seems to say as much in this Electric Scotland Posting. Which relies on their official stance as Thompsons with Lord Lyon, but as a measure of sanity acknowledges that it isn't possible for one clan, people or location to contain the root of all Thompsons and even offers some alternate clan affiliations.

In this case it seems that being a member of one of the biggest and most vague family names on the planet also allows us the most individuality and choice.

Being able to choose your allegiance based on personal gain and individual freedom should make any Border Reiver from Clan Thom(p)son happy.

Ambiguous Results

As a person with one of the most common names in the world, it's difficult to track anything down. Since I ordered my DNA test to help eliminate variables and dispell some of that mystery, I've been sorely disappointed by the results.

Ancestry.com lists us as R1b, which as I've said before narrows the focus to ...well all things west of Mongolia. Genetree (sorenson genetics) makes a best guess of Y-DNA Haplogroup:R-M207 Subgroup: R1b1b2a*-S128, which instead of making us related to Basques or Spaniards, French or Belgian, Irish, Dutch, Scotch or English makes them related to us. Our DNA is generically Western Neolithic European circa 6500 years ago.

I have to imagine this means either that I wasn't completely tested since others have much more defined results or that things are changing so rapidly they just haven't found a category for me yet.

Couple this vagueness with the fact that our DNA seems to match within a thousand years with small pockets of people all over Brittain, Flanders, Scotland and Ireland, but not any single other person closely...and you can see the frustration.

A few days ago however something changed. Genetree shows a 41 on 41 match. An exact match for me. They sent me a notification about it, which was exiciting. Considering that there a no Thompsons who match me any better than a random sampling of other family names in Atlantic Europe, this is big news.

So I eagerly logged in to Genetree to see who my new match was and what their name was or place of origin and what do I find?

Protected.

No information. Not even a link to contact them safely through Genetree. Nothing. A totally anonymous donation to Sorenson Genetics with no contact information, location or surname to reference.

Sigh.

Okay, it's cool that someone out there in the world..possibly even in my own family, matches me that closely, but they could be a liiiiittle more helpful.

Bits and Pieces

So in the absence of a definitive DNA match I have to put things together the best I can based on some "close" DNA matches, my own amateur ancestry.com paper trail and broad generalities about "Thompsons".

So I'll start here with the most basic things. Thompson is a short form of that great Lord of the Rings type name. You know, like Gimly son of Gloen, only in my family it was (insert name here) son of Thomas. Over time it might be Thomas's son and be shortened to Thomson. Later the intrusive "P" was added, possibly to be fancy, or to differentiate from some unknown other group of Thomsons or because people in my family enjoy spitting when they talk. Either way Thompson is more common in England and Ireland, while Thomson is generally associated with Scotland.

Most family name sites and genealogy forums agree that Thompson or Thomson is a Scottish name, but it's pretty likely that it could originate anywhere there's a Thomas who has a son....so you can never be totally sure. There are plenty of Thomsens in Scandinavian and Germanic countries so I doubt all sons of Thomas are Scottish.

For my research though, at this time (everything changes) we appear to be from Northern Ireland in the late 1700s. That coincides nicely with the Ulster Scots who are the product of the Ulster Plantation and the general Plantations of Ireland that Occurred over hundreds of years. Given the English intrusive "P" in the Thompson name it stands to reason that we are from the British Isles (probably England) and at some point moved to Northern Ireland and became Irish Thompsons before we moved to the U.S. in the early 1800s.

That also fits nicely with our family story that we are English and that we are in some way related to the Royal family. I won't hold my breath waiting for the Knighthood but family stories however strange sometimes contain seeds of truth and kernels of family history even when they lead you where you least expect. In my case Donegal Ireland.

Back to generic Thompson name information. I'll assume we have the Scottish name because we're probably Ulster Scots or Ulster Irish or Scots Irish or Northern Irelanders whatever you're comfortable with. During the mid to late 1700s and early 1800s they just called themselves Irish so I'll use these terms interchangeably.

So Thom(p)son is Scottish enough for me. Where does the name come from? Well...Ireland. With the original "Scotti" (what the romans called them) or the Dal Raida kingdom that contained Northern Ireland and Scotland in the 500s AD. Last names are a fairly recent invention, but the root words for the Thompson name originate with the Gaelic speaking Irish Scots. The Thompson DNA project has a pretty nice breakdown of all the different versions of Thompson names from MacTomaidh to Holmes.

A couple of highland clans from that area claim the Thompsons. Probably the most vocal that I've seen are MacTavish (Tavish is actually and anglicized version of how the Irish pronounced Tomaidh) and MacThomas. MacTavish is a western Highland and lowland clan around Argyle. MacThomas is a more easterly highland clan around Glenshee. Thompsons are also claimed by Fraser (MacTavish has a deer on it's coat of arms like Fraser's deer badge) and Campbell (who claims MacTavish as well. They get the boars head from Campbell).

And of course the Thom(p)sons want to be their own recognized clan.

All of this makes the generic Thompson Family Motto even more ironic.

"Know Thyself."

My Thompson DNA

I keep putting this disclaiming "My" in front of Thompson because there are a lot of Thompsons. The closest Thompson to me at the Thompsons DNA Project are Robert Thompson before 1775 Scotland (we mismatch on 6 markers) and Benjamin Thompson, c 1766 England (we mismatch by 7 or 8 markers). In the world of FTDNA that means we're likely not related. But they're close-ish like maybe 500 to 1000 years ago.

So there is the distinct possibility that I'm not a "Thompson". Family names are a pretty recent invention and especially with a group as large as the Thompsons (second only to Smith) there's a lot of room for play in naming.

I have closer matches at Y-Search (QNYHC) and Ybase (K87WM) (both free) with people outside my family name. Again most of them would be hundreds to thousands of years away. Many of them oddly have Belgian or German names, most are in Northern England or Scotland or have surnames that evolved there. Some are on the east coast of Southern England. And some are in eastern and northern Ireland.

I tested with Ancestry.com as R1b, not real helpful since most everyone in Western Europe is R1b. Genetree lists it's confidence as "High" that I'm at least R1b1b2a*-S128, which on a color map is most prevalent in Ireland (Gaels) and Western Scotland (Gaels/Picts) followed by England (Normans, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Britons), Belgium (Flemmings, Walloons, Angles and Gauls), North Western France (Normans and Gauls) and northern Spain (Basques).

It's the parent group for many more described markers that look a lot like me. We match fairly close to the Irish Modal (Ui Niall) and the Scots Modal and a set of markers loosely ascribed to the borders region of Scotland among the "Border Reivers" although the same site has matches for us listed twice (also listed as Niall of 9 Hostages). We have a lot of markers in common with the MacLeods (Western Scottish Isles) and the Sinclairs (who came to Scotland with the Normans in 1066).

We're OGAP19 which is a migration group put together by Oxford based on a very small haplotype. Their migration path comes from the mainland and swings through lower England and Wales. It continues to Eastern Ireland and then up to the North before it swings in a high arc to the Highlands and Islands of Western Scotland where it evolves or changes to a different OGAP group while moving east. Here are the markers for the different OGAP groups.

We match a fair number of people in Donegal and Ulster Northern Ireland...some are alternate versions of the name Thompson (like McCombe and Holmes) and a few further south into Wexford and Carvan, but they may be related because Normans invaded Ireland in 1169 or later after the Scottish Plantation in Ireland.

We match a number of people from Northern England or with names whose origins lie there in York and Northumbria and on the Western side of Northern England around Dumfries and in Cumberland. We also match several people in southern England who have Northern English names but live in and around Kent. Oddly some of these people have relatives with Thompson in their names like Ezra Thompson Knowlton. The Thompson seems to spring up out of nowhere.

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the few people we match from Germany and the Netherlands. We match fairly close (1000s of years) with several German families living in Germany. We match quite a few people with German or Dutch names but ironically they live in England, Scotland and Ireland...or as one group showed they have people in their recent past with "Thompsons" in their family. You find that Grandpa Colson's grandmother is a Thompson..which should have no bearing what so ever because that's maternal DNA...but still it's odd because the family is also living in Hamilton Ohio..where I trace my Thompsons.

No one matches me any closer than 300 or so years ago. Which Ironically is in the century that my paper trail ends.

Crest, Badge and Tartan Apology

Thompson is claimed by several Scottish clans and is also I'm sure a very proud Irish and English family with symbolism to match their pride. Since I don't know much about where we're "exactly" from, I've made a choice about my title on the blog. I picked the Border Reiver Clan Thompson tartan which could represent Thompsons on both sides of the Scotland/England border and the MacTavish badge which...at this point my DNA and rough OGAP group seem to point at.

I should note that Thompsons are also claimed by Fraser (French/Norman origin) and MacThomas (a branch of MacKintosh) and both of those are viable options. I have not at this point joined any clan officially.

I guess I'll wait to see which one offers the most benefits (that makes me a border reiver now doesn't it).

Descendant Tree so far.

Thomas Thompson born Donegal Ireland 1783 or 1785. Died Hamilton County Ohio 1816.
Arrived 1804 in Philidelphia on the ship "Brothers" from the port of Derry.
Possibly Married Elizabeth Benbow in North Carolina in 1810..
Moved to Hamilton Ohio had three possibly four sons Bazaleel 1810, Alfred 1812, Thomas 1814. Bazaleel may also be Henry or Henry could be another son. Sons were adopted by Enoch Evringham in 1816 according to probate records.


Thomas Thompson born Hamilton Ohio 1814. Died before 1860 in Indiana. Arrived in Glenwood Indiana with Alfred and Henry in 1832 where Alfred was a merchant with a tavern and store and Henry and Thomas were blacksmiths. Marries Hannah Williams (born 1818 in Fayette Indiana) in 1837 in Fayette Indiana by 1850 lives in District 97, Rush Indiana. Children: Alfred F (1841), Sarah A (1844), Everet William (1846), Ward (1846), Taylor (1849), Winfield (1850), John (1854), Oliver (1856).

Oliver Thompson born 1856 (probably) Orange, Rush, Indiana. Died sometime after 1880 census living in Orange Rush. Married Cordelia (born 1857 Indiana). Children: Albert O (1878), Mary (1879).

Albert O Thompson born 1878 Orange Rush Indiana. Died 1920 Trafalgar Indiana. Married 1892 to Ida Williamson (born 1874 died 1935) in Madison Indiana where he lived until around 1920. Children: Eva M (1893), Vivian Leo (1895), Ray Bishop (1898), Cuba (1901), Francis (1905), Harry (1910).

Ray Bishop Thompson born 1898 Madison Indiana. Died Sep 1970, Knox, Starke, Indiana. Possibly married Orvetta Ina Finks (later Abbott) (born 1905 Illinois. died 1986 Cadillac Michigan) some time around 1925. One child by that union: Charles Paul (Feb 19 1925 - Oct 25 1986). Family story is that Bishop was a railroad worker with the nickname "Polar" because some of his appendages froze off while he was drunk.

Charles Paul Thompson born Feb 19 1925 Cadillac Michigan. Died Oct 25 2006. Married Eliabeth Jean Seelye (1924 Flint Michigan - 2005 Cadillac Michigan) either during or just after World War II in Rush Indiana.

Statement of Intent and disclaimer

I intend to track some of my search for my Thompson family here in the hopes that it will be found by someone else on their own Thompson hunt.

I have to post a disclaimer here. I'm an amateur and not a very good one. I'm not a professional geneologist by any means. I decided to try to find my family because the elders in my clan are dying off and I don't know anything about who we are...well at least I didn't know. I've found out a lot of things (or think I have) and I've met a few people all in the hopes of filling in the gaps. I should say right now that it was all gaps.

After my first son was born, I asked my grandparents who their parents were and where we came from. My grandmother told me they didn't have any money for me. So it was pretty evident that I wasn't going to get very far. As my son went to school and began filling out family trees in class I watched him put together the same trees I always did as a kid. Him and a couple of branches, a few names and then a big pile of question marks.

Since I was in second grade, I've wanted to know where we come from, but never had any resources. Enter Ancestry.com. I purchased family tree maker years ago but got nowhere, but with ancestry.com backed up by familysearch.org and different Genweb sites. I was able to put a lot of the pieces together...except for the Thompsons. I was pretty stuck there.

I'm a Thompson from Cadillac Michigan, which is in Wexford County in northern lower michigan. There are a lot of Thompsons. The world is littered with them. The planet is awful with Thompsons. Finding your Thompson relatives isn't like finding a needle in a hay stack. It's like finding your needle in a needle stack.

My Dad gave me some really good clues and we had some birth records for my grandfather which got me to my first big sticking point. Albert Thompson. My great, great grandfather. He didn't live very long...as far as I can tell, which is unfortunate because it doesn't give you a lot of records.

You have to understand that when you're trying to find that one honeybee in the hive you really need a lot of records to weed everyone else out. So Albert didn't leave me with a whole lot of records. Really just two census records before he disappears from view. If you're lucky and you're looking in the census it will list where a person's parents are from. Albert has two records.

In the first one (1910) you see his wife and kids and his mother is listed as being from Indiana and his father is from X....not really helpful.

The second (1920) record lists him and his kids but not his wife. It says he's widowed and gives the wrong age for him (it lists his wife's age). It says his parents are both from Indiana...more helpful but hard to trust because in 1930 you find his wife alive and widowed with the kids. So is that record for him or his wife and which things are real and which are fake.

Being able to tell where someone's parents are from is crucial for finding their census records from the time when they lived with their mom and dad. So I wanted to narrow my search down to children named Albert Thompson born around 1878 who's parents are both from Indiana...except for that X record damn it.

So I began hunting for Alberts. I came up with three candidates that were born in the right years and whose parents were near the right town and were both from Indiana...or Dad was from X. So I had two candidates with parents from Indiana and a second candidate whose Dad was from Denmark and his mother was from Indiana.

I moved on from the Denmark record, because if it's right then..we're from Denmark right there, end of search. Save that record and move on.

The other two were both native Indiana people who I found partially because of death records. Albert O. Thompson dies in 1920 close enough to the census to give a census taker problems when talking with his grieving wife. The other Albert died in 1910.. which is the last birth year for a child (Henry).

I followed both Alberts. Albert O was harder than Albert (nothing) and in the end they led me to much the same place (by different means). Albert O leads back to North Carolina in the early 1800s and Albert (nothing) led back to South Carolina in the 1750s. From there both jumped to Ireland. Albert O led to Thomas Thompson Donegal Ireland 1783(5?) and Albert Thompson led to Archibald Thompson, Cork Ireland 175x.

In the end, I was less comfortable with the 1909/1910 death date because of the birth of Henry so I dismantled the Archibald ended family tree and left the Thomas tree floating at Ancestry.com as the "Michael James Thompson" family tree as my official tree.